who erased the file?

[Buzz Bumble]

Thinking about this more last night, it's obvious that none of the characters we already know can be the real Sifo-Dyas. Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan all knew who Sifo-Dyas was and that he died 10 years ago, therefore it can't be any of the characters we already know the names of (including Yarrel Poof and the other Episode I Council members).

That makes it 100% definite that the real Sifo-Dyas is someone we've never seen yet (unless "Sifo-Dyas" was an alias a particular Jedi often used when on secret missions), BUT the "Sifo-Dyas" that visited the Kamino Clone Makers could still be one of the main players in disguise (possibly after killing the real Sifo-Dyas themselves).

 

[Borsk]

It's always said that Jedi fall to the dark side - which implies that a person doesn't start out training to be a dark jedi, but rather trains to be a jedi and then "falls".

This is probably why the jedi have rules regarding who gets trained and who doesn't so that they avoid training people that have a higher chance of falling.

Syfo-Dyas might have been a jedi, on the council even, who fell to the dark side. So, if you follow that thinking, then Sidious at one point was a jedi and could have been known as sifo-dyas when he was "good".

There is an example in the OT of Obi-wan telling Luke that his father was killed rather than telling him that he had fallen to the dark side:

Originally posted by AmShak
Obi-Wan told Luke that Anakin was dead when he had really just turned into Darth Vader. I wouldn't bet the house that Sifo is really dead, although he probably is.

There may be some EU stuff that goes against this. If so, I haven't read it. Is there a distinction between being a dark jedi and a sith?

Just speculation...

 

[AmShak]

Dark Jedi
term used to refer to those Jedi Knights who have fallen from the Light Side and become seduced by the power and ease of the Dark Side of the Force. Many of them were Sith masters as well, drawing strength from both sets of lore.

Sith
this ancient brotherhood of Jedi Knights split from the ranks of the "lightsiders" when access to the ancient Sith lore was forbidden. The Jedi Council feared that the knowledge of harnessing the Dark Side of the Force would be twisted and used to perform many evil acts. The Sith brotherhood was founded some 2,000 years before the Battle of Yavin by a rogue Jedi Knight who yearned to learn more of the Dark Side of the Force. Together with about 50 followers, this rogue fled the Old Republic and established his own Sith order. With galactic domination on their agenda, these new Sith Lords quickly became distrustful of each other and abusive of their dark side powers. In a short time, they had nearly wiped themselves out again. One Sith Lord remained, a man by the name of Darth Bane. He swore that the Sith would never again vanish from the galaxy, but also made certain that they never grew beyond their means. He established a rigid code by which there could only be a single Sith Lord and a single Sith apprentice. When the Lord finally expired, his current apprentice was promoted and allowed to take his own student. This pairing continued for the next several centuries until Darth Sidious rose to power as the Sith Lord. Sidious eventually took Darth Maul as his apprentice, and hoped to take control of the galaxy by bringing the Old Republic down from the inside. However, Maul was destroyed by Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Sidious' plans were thwarted. Decades later, Emperor Palpatine established Darth Vader as the last Dark Lord through the rigorous training he gave Vader. Following the deaths of Vader and Palpatine at the Battle of Endor, and with the destruction of Palpatine's clones on Byss, the order of the Sith was exterminated.

 

[AmShak]

I saw this over at TBSWU ...

It's a little long, but if you have the time, you might find it interesting.

Is There a Jedi Council Traitor?
On July 20, 2000, the official Star Wars website posted the following poll: "When do you think the Clone Wars occur?" Based on the best information at the time, it seemed as if the Clone Wars would occur in EPISODE II. Most fans assumed that they would be shown on film (51% of the fans in the poll voted for EPISODE II), thus ruling out the possibility of their occurrence between films. In the end, this poll served as a strong hint to fans that the wars would indeed occur between the films, which turns out to be the case.

On May 31, 2001, the official Star Wars website posted the following poll: "Do you think there might be a traitor in the Jedi Council?" The results were that 73% of the fans voted for YES. Could this poll also be a way of throwing out a hint to the fans? This essay explores the background, which may shed light on this issue a potential traitor on the Jedi Council.

Yoda states, "Only a Jedi could have erased those files." The poll mentioned above specifically refers to the Jedi Council, hinting that the traitor is not just a Jedi, but also a Jedi council member. The Jedi council is comprised of 12 Jedi Knights, who meet in a round circular room, in round table fashion. This suggests we consider the phenomenon of the number of 12 knights, and although there is no table in the Jedi council chambers, the mythology of King Arthur and the Knights of the roundtable.

Perhaps the most widely known historical/mythical story of the traitor of the 12 is that of Judas Iscariot in the Christian tradition. Judas betrays Jesus by leading his opponents to him and then identifying him with a kiss (this kiss of betrayal occurs in the biblical gospel stories Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but not John). Regardless of the many debates over the historicity and details of the story, it is memorable and powerful. Lucas may well be drawing from this tradition and incorporating it into his own Star Wars myth.

 

[AmShak]

This story is also has at least two allegories, which may have served as part of the background and inspiration of the Judas story. Both of these require some background explanation.

In music theory, there is a mathematical constant known as the Comma of Pythagoras. Because the frequency ratio of an octave is 2 to 1, and the frequency ratio of a perfect fifth interval is 3 to 2, the musical scale can never be balanced. Either the octave note will be perfectly tuned with fifth being flat, or the fifth will be perfectly tuned with the octave being sharp. Envision a music wheel (see http://members.aol.com/johnkeely/geo1.html). If the scale is started with an A note, then the fifths and the octaves will both return to an A note 7 octaves later, which is 12 fifths later, at the beginning point on the wheel. However, at this returning connection point, there will be a discrepancy in their frequency ratios of about 1.0136432648, which is known as the Comma of Pythagoras (though it was apparently discovered long before the time of Pythagoras himself). The decimal part, .0135432648, can be considered as the tiny discrepancy between the ideal and the real (see Robert Temple's book, The Crystal Sun). Thus, the music "wheel" is really a music spiral.

This Comma of Pythagoras also shows up in other branches of mathematics, nuclear, and astro physics as well. Without it, hydrogen could not transform into helium and the other elements would not exist. For the details on this, see my book Behind the Wheel: Geometry, Music, and Astronomy of Ancient Monuments, Myths, and Texts (available at http://www.davidhudgins.com). This "problem" resulting from the Comma of Pythagoras is what led to the widely used system of equal temperament tuning for musical instruments. In the equal temperament system, the octaves (the leader) are in tune while the fifths are always flat relative to their natural frequencies dictated by physics.

Ernest McClain, in The Myth of Invariance suggests that the twelfth disciple can be compared to the twelfth fifth on the music wheel. This twelfth disciple, Judas, betrays the fundamental note, which is the leader, with a kiss--a near miss of approximately .0136432648. Once this twelfth disciple/musical fifth is expelled from the set (Jedi order), the leader or the fundamental note, is forced to absorb this musical "sin" on Himself. Perhaps this is also why, in the story of the kiss of betrayal, all 3 synoptic gospel accounts emphasize that Judas is "one of the twelve," and why the poll on the official site considers the traitor as one of 12 council members. Further suggestive of this is the idea of its intentional usage in the Christian tradition is that soon after the formation of the church, the Christian church selected 7 deacons (see Acts 6: 2-3), making 12 apostles (fifths) and 7 deacons (octaves).

A second allegory for this may also show up in the Arthurian myth. One of he pioneering giants among scholars, John Michell, has suggested that in the Arthur legend, Arthur can be identified with the star Arcturus, and that the journey of the Great Bear/Ursa Major/Big Dipper constellation around the North Pole star is the original source of the Round Table. Due to the facts of changes in the earth's axial tilt (obliquity) and its processional cycle, this "table" is not exactly round, but follows an elliptical spiral pattern with a parallel to the Comma of Pythagoras.

 

[AmShak]

In this sense, by incorporating a traitor into the council, Lucas would be expressing the laws of physics within his modern myth, just as the ancients did with a variety of celestial and mathematical phenomena (See Santillana and von Dechend's classic work, Hamlet's Mill). Both in the Judas story and in the world of physics, this "traitor" must be part of the picture in order for the story to even exist. It is also interesting to point out that this discrepancy between the "ideal" and the "real" is suggestive in more than one way that the universe is indeed hyperdimensional (has 4 or more dimensions) rather than only 3 dimensional. Only in a higher dimension can the Comma's gap be reconciled. This is loosely modeled in Star Wars by the workings of the Force.

And what about the Round Table? According to The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Arthurian Legends, its history is as follows.

It was the table at which Arthur seated his knights to avoid wrangling over precedence. The table is variously represented as a disc, a ring, a semicircle or a broken ring with an opening for servants. Arthur would have sat at a separate table from the knights. The Round Table is first mentioned by Wace who claimed the knights sat inside the circle which it formed. Robert has it seating 50 knights, the Vulgate Version 250, and Layamon 1,600. The Round Table at Winchester, which survives to this day, was thought by Caxton, when he wrote his preface to Malory's Morte d'Arthur, to be the original table, but such an opinion cannot be sustained.

It is interesting that this Round Table at Winchester (see http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/infopedia/w/winchester_round_table.htm) has 24 spaces, with a gap (with the king in it) that is somewhat suggestive of the gap of the Comma of Pythagoras. And, is has 6 labels around the inner circumference ring where the king's painting would form the 7th, suggestive of the 7 octaves. The 12/24 may hint at a dual nature, especially given the alternating colors on the table.

With regard to the potential Star Wars use of the Judas story, it will be interesting to see whether the council traitor betrays the council for money. In the case of Judas, it was for 30 pieces of silver that were eventually used to buy a plot of land (the Field of Blood, see Matthew). Further, in the John's version, Peter cuts off one of the Malchus' ears with a sword (in the 3 synoptic gospels one of the disciples cuts of an ear of a servant of the high priests). Now that definitely has a Star Wars feel to it, except we would be watching lightsabers slicing off body parts.

Even this lost ear has overtones of the Comma of Pythagoras in it, since the ear hears the sound vibrations, and one of the cycles must betray the other in order close the Comma's "traitorous" gap; hence it is specifically one ear that is cut off, rather some other body part. Think about it, when swinging a sword, it is quite difficult to aim for the ear and cut it off; thus, either this was such an unusual feat that it was recorded, or it has a specific connotation in terms of its mythical/scientific meaning, or both. In Luke's version, Jesus specifically repairs the ear further emphasizing that he takes the musical "sin" on himself.

 

[AmShak]

An older myth is the Egyptian myth of Set and Osiris. In the myth, Set betrays and murders Osiris with the aid of 72 conspirators. Set cuts his body into 14 pieces and scatters them across Egypt. For example, the seat of the head of Osiris is at Abydos. The 72 has been convincingly been argued by a number of authors to be a direct reference to the fact that one degree of the precession of the earth's equinox takes just under 72 years (which is also a key musical frequency and number in the mathematical field of Gematria). See my essay The Named and the Unnamed: Darth Bane in the Prequels for more on this. This traitorous action by Set must occur in order for Horus to establish the new ensuing direct path to enlightenment, as opposed to the cyclical Osiris path.

These examples, and many more, show that the great ancient myths and some of their potential historical counterparts have most effectively employed traitors in their stories to convey actual scientific information. Since Lucas intentionally uses Star Wars to create a modern myth, he is likely to incorporate this theme into his own story.

In the Arthurian tales, Lancelot is a form of a traitor, but we now know that in Star Wars, the betrayal will not be due to a love interest. Mordred is the other traitor in (most versions of) the Aurthurian tales. In Star Wars, Dooku has already been established as a traitor, as directly expressed by Obi-Wan, but his betrayal was apparently for politics and power, not money or a woman. And Dooku was not a member of the council, so he is certainly not the inside traitor in question.

Lucas's story of the betrayal and fall of the Jedi will likely show some influence the real historical Knights Templar and their betrayal (see my essay, Friday the 13th). And back in the old Star Wars Screen Saver, Lucas did put in the hidden message that in the prequels, you never really know who the good guys and the bad guys are. But who is the specific traitor on the council?

It's obviously not Yoda, the wisest and most powerful Jedi in all of Jedi history. Not Mace Windu either, for the following very practical reasons. Although it was ridiculous, Lucas was bashed for racial bias with Jar Jar in EPISODE I. Some people even did some bashing with Lando in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK (which leads to a very funny scene in the movie CHASING AMY, although this certainly was bogus, and was proven to be such by Lando's triumph in RETURN OF THE JEDI.

But more to the point - Lucas likes Sam Jackson, and Sam Jackson loves his role of Mace Windu in Star Wars. Unlike Harrison Ford and Han Solo, Jackson loves his character and wants to get the best stuff for him as possible. Lucas gives in to Jackson, too. He gave him a purple lightsaber over his own desire to limit the colors to blue, green, and red. He also agreed to Jackson's request to not let Mace Windu die like "some punk" in EPISODE III. Mace will be a good guy until the end, and will likely be killed in a great battle scene by either Anakin, Palpatine, or perhaps less likely, revenge by Boba Fett. Jackson would rebel at any insinuation of Mace being a traitor, and Lucas will not even bring it up. Mace Windu was in the very earliest drafts of the Star Wars scripts. He is Yoda's right hand man, and he will not be the traitor. Furthermore, it would seem completely unreasonable for Yoda not to sense any such qualities in his main assistant.

 

[AmShak]

Although I don't recall the source, somewhere Lucas has expressed aversion to having the females being evil characters. Though a traitor may not necessarily be a truly bad character, my guess is that the traitor will not be a female Jedi.

One guess might be Oppo Rancissis. The name kind of sounds like opportunity crises, and the "is" slightly hints at Is-cariot; but that is not much at all. But he does look like a snakelike, serpentine character that might slither into a traitorous role. Attention and movement were added to his tale for EPISODE II, as well. Snakes themselves are biologically the epitome of duality, and they are often portrayed in a negative fashion. In the source materials, he is also supposed to be a military planner/strategist. Could this be hinting at usage of these skills in helping to design and start the clone war through treachery? And if he is such a military planner, why was he nowhere to be seen on Geonosis? One problem with this is that if he were to have much of a role in EPISODE III, he would be a CG pain to deal with.

Lucas has apparently not dropped any really good clues as to who the actual traitor might be, if there even is one at all, so I will not speculate. On the other hand, Lucas has certainly left a clue that there is a traitor in the Jedi council, and based on the power of the applied mythology, this part of the storyline should strengthen the impact and depth of the entire prequel trilogy.

 

[Yoda Man]

MAUL! IT'S MAUL!!! This is what I think. First off, all darths have another identidy: DARTH Vader=Anakin Skywalker, DARTH Sidious= Emperor Palpatine, DARTH Tyranus= Count Dooku. So if there is a Darth Maul, then what was his original identity. My theory is that he is Sifo Dyas and that he did what Sidous did being two different people. So when Maul died there was no more Sifo Dyas. And as far as Sifo being dead, they never said they found his body. As far as were concerned he just dissapeared so they assumed he died. When he was still in the jedi temple I bet he erased it because he had the acces

 

[Zepp]

Sifo Dyas-fo=Sidyas, pronounced Sidious... just an observation.

alright, everyone assumes that Sidious is Palpatine, or a clone thereof. Couldn't it be that Sifo Dyas was a shapeshifting Jedi that turned dark faking death and then killed Palpatine. The deceased Palpatine's Identity was then taken by the shapeshifter who used the burned corpse as evidence of Sifo Dyas' demise...

it seems a little absurd, but everyone is just going under a handful of assumptions... another possibility is that Sifo Dyas is Sidious but is not Palpatine, who, as a Lord of the Sith, has long forsaken the rule of two seeing it as innefficient, or perhaps Palpatine is an Apprentice to Sidious...

you never know...

 

[Darth Boru]

methinks this is being looked into way too deeply.

As mentioned, this is probably back story and not necessarily essential to telling the life story of Anakin.

It seems to me that Sifo was a real jedi on the council who was assasinated by a Sith and then impersonated on Kamino.

That Sith then deleted the file.

The most likely outcome will be that it was Dooku who deleted the file shortly before leaving the Jedi.

For it to be Mace seems unlikely, as he would have had to hide all this from Yoda while being in daily contact with him for ten years.

All things considered, it was probably Dooku, but thats just my 2 cents

 

[Dark Jedi]

If it was Mace, that would explain why he killed Jango Fett instead of disarming him, seeing as jedi try not to kill to much, My theory is that Count Dooku AKA Darth Tyranus convinced Mace to kill Jango as part of the making a better republic thing, back on the subject of the deleted file, Anakin? Most likely but the most likely suspest is often a victim... And if it were Yoda, perhaps to protect Obi-wan from a truth he wouldn't want to know? Or it could have been Darth Sidious who I think is actually palpatine, in AOTC they say Sifo Dias ordered them created...perhaps Sidious is Sifo Dias? You never know...