Too many holes in prequels?

[Stevetrooper]

Is anyone a little frusterated at the prequels faliure to answer questions? If Padme died right after childbirth, why does Leia have vague memories of her? She didn't have any more time with her mother than Luke did. I would have thought that Padme would have gone into hiding with Leia on Alderaan and then was killed two or three years later. Why is Luke sent to be with Lars and Beru, who are not really even related to him, when he has actual blood relatives on Naboo? It's sensless to send him to Anakin's home planet, have him keep his last name, and live in a place where there are only two people to protect him. Also, they never answered the riddle of the mysterious tree cave on Dagobah. Why was it "a domain of evil?" I figured maybe Yoda and Tyrannus were going to have a final showdown there or something. No such type of revalation. Why did they never follow up on the whole Sifo Dyas thing? The movie never really explains it. I suppose it is just Tyrannus using the dead Jedi's name, but they could've addressed it somehow. And no one in the movie ever really finds out. Tyrannus plays at being Palpatine's enemy right to the end. Also, they never really answered the question of why Yoda and Obi-Wan were the only Jedi to disappear when they died. Why doesn't Ben train Luke to be a Jedi from childhood? (and Leia with Yoda for that matter) Ben is living on the same planet with him and yet wastes all that valuable time. Any thoughts?

 

[wookiee_cookiee]

Padme dying so quick after childbirth really bothered me. I always thought she'd die fighting or be assassinated, and have time with young Leia so that Leia could be able to remember her. The way that set the scene in ROTS makes Leia look like an idiot, because there is no way she could remember her at all.

 

[Darth Aussie]

Yeah the Sifo Dyas thing bothered me. i wanted to know what the deal was with Obi wan staying in hiding all those years and did he bother to contact Luke, No obviously he had to wait until Luke was older to understand what was going on?....Maybe Owen tried his best to keep him out of his way by working the $## load out of him......

 

[Barada]

Is anyone a little frusterated at the prequels faliure to answer questions? If Padme died right after childbirth, why does Leia have vague memories of her? She didn't have any more time with her mother than Luke did. I would have thought that Padme would have gone into hiding with Leia on Alderaan and then was killed two or three years later.

One of the greatest inconsistencies to be sure. Lucas had a major problem. As long as Padme lived, Anakin would have no reason to turn completely to the dark side. Losing Padme was the final straw, and put him over the edge 100%. It also adds to dramatic tragedy. From a 'Vader' standpoint, it made the most sense to have Anakin kill Padme in ROTS. Lucas probably considered that more important than a 30-second scene where Leia has recollections. I suppose it could be explained by pictures of Padme, which the Organas were sure to have around. I heard one theory that Leia had dreams of Padme growing up, but that sounds like a cop-out to me.

Why is Luke sent to be with Lars and Beru, who are not really even related to him, when he has actual blood relatives on Naboo? It's sensless to send him to Anakin's home planet, have him keep his last name, and live in a place where there are only two people to protect him.

Actually, the Lars' were directly related to Luke (and Leia). Owen's father married Anakin's mother, which made Owen and Anakin step-brothers. That meant that through marriage, Luke and Leia were indeed Owen and Beru's nephew and niece. Sending either baby to Naboo would be dangerous. Anakin would associate Naboo with Padme, and if a child survived, then the first place to look would be their mother's home planet. Anakin did NOT want to return to Tatooine. He spent his childhood as a slave on the desert planet, and witnessed the native Tusken Raiders kill his mother, one of the only situations to cause Anakin extreme anguish. Why would Anakin want to return to a horrible planet with so many bad memories attached to it? That makes it the perfect hiding spot for Luke.

Also, they never answered the riddle of the mysterious tree cave on Dagobah. Why was it "a domain of evil?" I figured maybe Yoda and Tyrannus were going to have a final showdown there or something. No such type of revalation.

I have read an explanation for this in one of the novels, but forget right now. I believe it was just set up that way by Yoda, as a Jedi test. It was 'Dark Side' but in a controlled way. Why else would Yoda have sent Luke in? He even said to Luke that he had failed at the cave. Failed what? A test, of course.

Why did they never follow up on the whole Sifo Dyas thing? The movie never really explains it. I suppose it is just Tyrannus using the dead Jedi's name, but they could've addressed it somehow. And no one in the movie ever really finds out.

Yes, this is frustrating. Not explained in the movie, but in plenty of EU material, Sifo Dyas was a Jedi that Dooku had convinced to order the clones on behalf of the Jedi Council. He then killed Dyas before he could tell the Council what he had done. An alternate for this is that Dooku still killed Dyas, but placed the order afterwards while posing as the dead Jedi. Either way, Dyas was just the method used to order the clones, and wasn't really a major plot point that needed to be fleshed out. I don't read, or even care for, the EU, but this story has gotten out everywhere.

Tyrannus plays at being Palpatine's enemy right to the end.

This was all a ruse, to fool Anakin. Palpatine had convinced that he would turn Anakin by having Dooku push him, but Dooku believed right to the end that Anakin would not be able to actually defeat him. Palpatine also never told Dooku he was going to kill him when Anakin had been turned sufficiently. You could see the look of betrayal on Dooku's face when Palpatine tells Anakin to 'Kill him'.

Also, they never really answered the question of why Yoda and Obi-Wan were the only Jedi to disappear when they died.

They do in the ROTS novelization, and cut alot of it out in the film. Yoda tells Obi-Wan that he has established contact with Qui-Gon, and that he has training for him on Tatooine. What the film left out was a conversation between Yoda and Qui-Gon's spirit. Qui-Gon tells Yoda he has figured out the mystery of immortal life. It's a state of meditation so strong that the life force remains after the body is killed. As Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only two to survive after Qui-Gon's revelation, it stands to reason they are the only two to be taught how to accomplish the spirit appearances. You'll notice that in ANH, Obi-Wan pulls his lightsaber up and appears to go into a trance just before Vader cuts him down.

Why doesn't Ben train Luke to be a Jedi from childhood? (and Leia with Yoda for that matter) Ben is living on the same planet with him and yet wastes all that valuable time. Any thoughts?

Obi-Wan was way too busy learning the meditation required to become a spirit after his death. Besides, look at the problems with training Luke as a child. Owen disapproved of the Jedi lifestyle. Remember, Obi-Wan tells him that Owen did not want him to be like his father. Proper Jedi training facilities did not exist on Tatooine, and even if they did, Vader or Palpatine may have sensed the amount of Force being used on Tatooine, and led them there. Obi-Wan would not have been strong enough to defend himself alone with a child padawan. Besides, what would be the rush? If Luke had been fully trained at say 14 years old, they still couldn't take on the Empire at that point. They were waiting for the right time. Perhaps that right time was waiting to find a weakness in the Death Star, which was in full construction at the end of ROTS. All Obi-Wan needed to do was make sure Luke grew up with good ideals. As for Yoda, Dagobah was no place for a baby girl, and besides, Bail had volunteered to take Leia as soon as the question came up with what to do with the babies. Perhaps Yoda had the foresight that with the position the Organas were in, Leia would be born into a political future, one which would give her insight into the Empire's political ways.

Hope that explains a few things.

Barada

 

[Buzz Bumble]

Oh dear, here we go again. I knew someone would eventually bring up the old "plotholes" silliness around here.

There are no "plotholes" in the Star wars movies ... at least none of the supposed ones many people come up with. A little bit of thought provides answers to most of these questions very easily and the Expanded Universe of novels, comics, computer games, TV shows, etc. all help fill in the gaps that must be left by the movies.

You have to remember that the Star wars movie Saga is the story of Anakin Skywalker - his rise, his fall and his redemption. It's not the story of the Star Wars universe as a whole. The movies therefore concentrate on the events around Anakin and affecting Anakin. Within that story the "who is Sifo-Dyas" question is of no importance, only the fact that the Clone Wars happened is.

You also have to remember that the movies are only two or so hours long. You can't expect every tiny detail of the Star Wars universe to be explained. Some of it has to be left to your own imagination and the EU.

If Padme died right after childbirth, why does Leia have vague memories of her? She didn't have any more time with her mother than Luke did. I would have thought that Padme would have gone into hiding with Leia on Alderaan and then was killed two or three years later.

Leia doesn't actually remember her mother at all, she says she "remembers" only vague feelings and images. As Yoda says, through the Force you can see the past, the present and the future. Therefore the most sensible answer is that she is sensing images and feelings brought to her via her untrained (and unknown) Force abilities - she's really seeing events that happened before she was even born and confusing them as memories.

Luke on the other hand, again as Yoda says, is always looking to the future. He's too busy worrying about how to get off the Lars Moisture Farm, etc. to bother spending any thought about the past. He may well have seen similar images / feelings and simply dismissed them as dreams.

Why is Luke sent to be with Lars and Beru, who are not really even related to him, when he has actual blood relatives on Naboo? It's sensless to send him to Anakin's home planet, have him keep his last name, and live in a place where there are only two people to protect him.

It makes more sense to hide Luke on the backwater planet of Tatooine than to suddenly have the Naberrie family gain an extra baby on a more noticeable planet.

Also, they never answered the riddle of the mysterious tree cave on Dagobah. Why was it "a domain of evil?" I figured maybe Yoda and Tyrannus were going to have a final showdown there or something. No such type of revalation.

This is answered in the EU. Yoda did indeed have a battle, just not with Tyrannus.

Why did they never follow up on the whole Sifo Dyas thing? The movie never really explains it. I suppose it is just Tyrannus using the dead Jedi's name, but they could've addressed it somehow. And no one in the movie ever really finds out.

Again, it is explained in the EU. Sifo-Dyas foresaw (or was manipulated by Palpatine to "see") trouble in the future for the Republic. He went and ordered the Clone Army (again manipulated by Palpatine into not talking to the Council first). Palpatine then had him killed by Tyrannus to cover their trail.

Also, they never really answered the question of why Yoda and Obi-Wan were the only Jedi to disappear when they died.

If you watch Episode III closely you'll hear Yoda tell Obi-Wan that he has been talking with Qui-Gon, and that Obi-Wan has more to learn from his old Master. Qui-Gon learnt how to become one with the Force. Qui-Gon then taught both Yoda and Obi-Wan during the years bewteen Episodes III and IV.

Why doesn't Ben train Luke to be a Jedi from childhood? (and Leia with Yoda for that matter) Ben is living on the same planet with him and yet wastes all that valuable time. Any thoughts?

The idea is to hide the twins so Vader and the Emperor don't find them. Training Luke and Leia would have brought into the open - Vader and the Emperor would have sensed them much easier. It was only by the accident of Bail Organa asking Leia to fetch Obi-Wan and the Lars being killed that left Luke in Obi-Wan's care and beginning his training.

 

[Stevetrooper]

Interesting ideas. A good movie should not have to rely on "expanded universe" stuff in order to make any sense, though. They should have come up with a good excuse to take Luke to Tatooine since he had BLOOD relatives; aunts uncles, cousins and grand parents on Naboo. And taking him to his mothers home planet isn't any more dangerous than taking him to his fathers home planet. And at least on Naboo, there is a small military to protect him. Not just a couple of farmers. Likewise they needed a good excuse for Yoda not going into hiding on Alderaan and training Leia. Vader would have no problem going to Tatooine. In fact he does. He is orbiting it in A New Hope. You'd think that Leia's taking the Death Star plans to Tatooine would tip him off that something was up. It would have made more sense if they would've had Anakin be from an entirely different planet in The Phantom Menace. There was really no need for him to be from Tatooine other than as an excuse to build those old Lars homestead sets and to work the famialiarity factor. As far as the tree cave, it would have been more interesting if Yoda and Tyrannus ended up there via some kind of crash landing and they had a fight there that ended with Yoda killing him in that cave. Yoda then had to live there since he was stranded, and he made sure to live close enough to the tree cave so that the "dark" element would camafloge him from being detected there. As far as Tyrannus, yes, he was a ruse, that's my point. Although it becomes obvious that he has gone to the dark side, no one ever really finds out that he is working with Palpatine. And thus no one ever knows who ordered the clones. They just decide to drop it and order thousands of them for the war.As far as Qui-Gon, it is a little weak to believe that in the thousands of years of the Jedi, he is the only one to figure this whole immortal life thing out. And Anakin didn't have anybody teach it to him! Even when things are explained in the EU, it still makes it a flaw moviewise.

 

[Borsk]

Cinematically, I don't think you can have the Obi-Wan/Anakin fight and then spend 30 minutes explaining how Padme died 5 years later. She either had to die or just not have her fate addressed in the movie. I also think you need her death to happen right away so Anakin doesn't have time to emotionally recover from all he's been though.

In some of the EU things I've read in the past (a long time ago), they've talked about similiar places that are strong with the dark side. These places also serve as training grounds for young jedi. So, Dagobah wasn't really that unique. However, doesn't 'the cave' serve to mask Yoda's presence on Dagobah from Vader and the Emperor? If that's the case, what difference does it make if the twins are there with him?

And on this whole Qui-Gon thing ... shouldn't the question be 'why didn't Qui-Gon disappear'? Unless my memory is fuzzy, they burned Qui-Gon's body at the end of TPM.

Sifo-Dyas seems to just be a way to take your attention away from what is important. He's not that important. Palpatine probably could have used any number of Jedi to accomplish the same thing.

 

[Borsk]

Anakin be from an entirely different planet in The Phantom Menace.

Totally agree.

Anakin really should have lived on a planet other than Tatooine. Lucas put him there because Tatooine is something we all remember. I can appreciate the nostalgic reasons for doing it, but yeah, it makes the explanation to have Luke there a little questionable. It's sorta the same thing with C-3P0 and RD-D2. I don't think they should have been in the prequels (at least not as much as they are). It makes the transition a little messy. But, they're there for sentimental reasons.

Speaking of R2, I've always had a problem with him flying around in AOTC/ROTS when it's an ability he doesn't have in the OT.

 

[AmShak]

if Sifo-Dyas was worth mentioning, he was worth a bit more explanation. i would have prefered that he wasn't mentioned at all.... actually that's a lie .... i would have prefered that Qui-Gon was Sifo-Dyas but that's a whole other story.

it's a movie, so i'm not going to worry about it too much but it would be nice if they could have made it match up better. like the big deal about the jedi training taking place after a certain age but then they leave luke AND leia alone? they did this so vader or palpatine could not sense them? they couldn't take one of them to dagobah or a similar place? yoda tells obi-wan in esb that luke is too old to begin the training? he's their last hope? no wait, there is another? ..... get off your green butt and start training them then.

that would be my biggest problem if i wa sgoing to worry about it.

 

[Buzz Bumble]

Even when things are explained in the EU, it still makes it a flaw moviewise.

No it doesn't. The movies are just one story in the huge Star Wars universe: the story of Anakin Skywalker. The other bazillion-and-one stories in that universe are left to the EU to fill out (or your own imagination). You can't expect one movie, or in this case even a set of six movies, to fill in EVERY tiny little detail of an entire universe.

The movies concentrate on Anakin. George Lucas has already put loads of "fluff" into the prequels to try an appease the whiners, things like Chewie showing up and yet still others whine on about Han not being there.

If you're going to say these silly bits are "flaws" or "plotholes", then every movie ever made is riddled with them as well.

If George Lucas tried to exaplin absolutely everything, he'd need infinite movies, and "Star Wars" would get boring very fast .

And on this whole Qui-Gon thing ... shouldn't the question be 'why didn't Qui-Gon disappear'? Unless my memory is fuzzy, they burned Qui-Gon's body at the end of TPM.

Qui-Gon doesn't disappear since he has learnt that trick, which is partly why we don't see Qui-Gon's Jedi Ghost either.

Speaking of R2, I've always had a problem with him flying around in AOTC/ROTS when it's an ability he doesn't have in the OT.

There was simply no real need for R2 to fly. About the only scene it could have been used was when escaping Jabba's sail barge ... but C-3PO can't fly and being buried in the sand would provide better protection against the explosion. There's also the fact that the droids no doubt underwent numerous re-fits and repairs over the 20 years in between the two Trilogies.

They should have come up with a good excuse to take Luke to Tatooine since he had BLOOD relatives; aunts uncles, cousins and grand parents on Naboo. And taking him to his mothers home planet isn't any more dangerous than taking him to his fathers home planet.

Leia isn't with "blood relatives" either, in fact she's with complete strangers.

They were trying to hide the twins. It makes no sense at all to put them with close family. It's better to put Luke on a backwater planet rather than a more noticeable one. Besides which, Naboo's military wouldn't stop the Emperor at all.

 

[Yoda Man]

Lucas is probably gonna pull out some lame excuse with the Leia thing. He'll say something like she was in the whom and having force abilities sensed everything about her mother for the nine months she techninally existed.

 

[darthskellington]

Hmmm......skimmed the last few posts... Buzz and BArada pretty muched summed up the EU info accurately, so I have nothing to add there. I personally have never seen any plot holes, so to speak. Much of the information about teh classic trilogy was background info never stated in the movies. CHewie was 200 years old..yoda was 800+...that was never said int eh movie (not until ROTJ, anyway)....we knew it from reading the back of a trading card, or teh novelization. Obi-Wan bested ANakin and he fell into a "molten pit", and was left for dead. That was IN the movies..but cut. Now it's only in teh scripts and novels. EU is amazing for how if fleshes out somethng that is already good and makes it better.

However...........the prequels do not flow as logically as the classic movies....and you do need to know some EU to fully understand all the motives of various characters. I wish they included more background, but ultimately it's not important to the overall story, and would be impossible to hash out all teh intrigue in teh movies.


BTW.....Yoda referred to Qui-Gon as an "old friend having RETURNED"....so.....what's one more mystery of the force? I've never bothered to make issue of such things as that. I'd much rather read a novel about one of the battles of the CLone Wars than debate why Obi-Wan's ghost was blue instead of white.

 

[Stevetrooper]

But now for the really important EU info. How does Obi-Wan end up losing the big bump on his forehead between ep 3 & 4?

 

[darthskellington]

He lost it in an unexpected lightsaber duel with a Jawa.

 

[Buzz Bumble]

Lucas is probably gonna pull out some lame excuse with the Leia thing. He'll say something like she was in the whom and having force abilities sensed everything about her mother for the nine months she techninally existed.

Force users don't actually have to be present to see the events through the Force. Yoda says you can see the past and the future. Leia is simply seeing things before she was born (and yes, possibly while she was still in the womb since that's when Padmé was sad). It makes sense with everything else we know from the movies and EU.

A lot of these so-called "plotholes" are simply silly. A little common sense thought answers them. You may as well ask silly questions like "why doesn't anyone go to the toilet" or "why don't they eat very often" and call them "plotholes" as well.

 

[Borsk]

I don't think there are "plot holes" so much as there are "questionable choices". Sometimes it's hard to see the logic in a choice and it makes it hard to rationalize why that choice was made.

Basically, I think everyone that had "Star Wars baggage" before seeing the PT, had a different idea of what these movies would be. I've certainly thought of a few things I would do differently. The bottom line is that everything that happens, in regards to the plot, can be rationalized in such a way that it makes sense - whether we like it or not.

 

[Stevetrooper]

Exactly. I never actually said anything about plot holes. Just wanted to hear what inconsistancies peolple noticed and maybe what they would've done instead. Any continuity problem can be explained albiet usually weakly. Marvel comics does it all the time. There is, however, a big difference between "how come they don't use the bathroom" and "I thiught Yoda taught Obi-Wan, not Qui-Gon" (no need to explain it. I get the whole youngling thing.) I understand the difficulty that's involved when doing a story that takes place before another established film. But that's what a staff and rewrites are for. And hey, maybe Obi-Wan got that mole bit off by a womp rat while he was sleeping.

 

[Borsk]

Qui-Gon was worth it - even if the only reason was to keep Yoda out of the movie. I hated the Yoda puppet in TPM.

I liked the ESB puppet though, so I dunno...

 

[Stevetrooper]

Yeah, Yoda and Jabba were both best with O.T. puppetry. They should've used a puppet closer to ESB model and used it for all three prequels. Just save cgi stuff for action shots. (and Jabba should've been in ROTJ only)

 

[Buzz Bumble]

Exactly. I never actually said anything about plot holes. Just wanted to hear what inconsistancies peolple noticed and maybe what they would've done instead. Any continuity problem can be explained albiet usually weakly.

"Plothole", "inconsistency", "continuity problem" ... it's all really the same thing, and most of the things people bring up aren't actually anything of the sort. Using such words implies there are unsolvable mistakes. In reality these things are simply questions that whoever asking them doesn't understand, but many of us have solved.

Asking questions is fine, whinging about "plotholes" and "inconsistencies" (and I'm not saying you are) really, really annoys me ... as if you have'nt worked that out already.

Things HAVE to be left out of movies due to time constraints, technology contraints, irrelevance to the main storyline, etc., but most of these "missing" bits are easily and satisfactorily solved by simply applying a little brain-power and / or exploring the EU. Every movie ever made has "missing" bits.

The main problem is that there are some people stubbornly won't accept what isn't on-screen in the movie. Luckily most of us, especially in here, are happy to explore the wider Star Wars universe.

Marvel comics does it all the time.

Don't even get me started on the comic industry. DC Comics are particularly bad at "re-imagining" their characters from scratch, completely destroying any contintuity ... and that IS a massive plothole.

There is, however, a big difference between "how come they don't use the bathroom" and "I thiught Yoda taught Obi-Wan, not Qui-Gon" (no need to explain it. I get the whole youngling thing.)

There isn't really any difference - both can be answered by simply thinking about it and applying some common sense. Unfortunately the human race is apparently losing those abilities and has to have everything explained to them in tiny little detail.

Yes, there are some of these "missing" bits that have no definitive answer (yet), but we can still come up with plausible answers that do fit with everything else. Not to mention that if everything was somehow explained in the movies, there would be no EU and the numerous Star Wars message boards probably wouldn't exist.

You've just proven that "Obi-Wan being taught by Yoda" isn't a problem at all. Neither are most of the other things.