The Battle of Hoth

AmShak

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Since we have now seen the begining of the clone wars in AOTC, it makes me wonder what happened to all of the cool gunships and weapons that were being used in AOTC to the time we get to ESB? Carrying a bunch of gunships around seems much more practical than having a few AT-AT's and they sure would get you there quicker.
In fact, we see nothing in the OT that looks or moves anything like the gunships. I would think that they would have evolved into something?
I guess we can say that hoth is too cold for the gunships to operate correctly and that endor's trees were too tall ... they say that the snowspeeders were modified to work in such a cold enviroment but why wouldn't the empire have something that worked in a similar way?
And while i'm thinking about it... if the Falcon and X-Wings can fly around in the atmosphere of a planet, then why aren't they used in the battle and why doesn't the empire use TIE's?
I love the battle scenes in aotc but it now makes the battle scenes in esb seem kind of ... dull.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
 

Barada

Saboteur
Perhaps all the gunships had a factory recall for unsafe airbags? :roflmao:

Sorry, inside joke with myself. I just received a letter for my car yesterday with this news.

Good points AmShak. Maybe they can use some kind of excuse like only AT-AT's had the heavy firepower required to destroy the shield generator. Or perhaps the Rebels had developed strong enough anti-aircraft weapons to be able to repel any kind of attack like that. Let's face it - if air attacks were the ultimate form of battle, then why does every country in the world put such an emphasis on land-based armies?

Barada
 

TechOfficerTodd

New Recruit
My thoughts

Here's my take: X-wings and the Falcon are interspace vessels like the TIEs - I think they fly far to fast to engage any ground targets in battle - especially a rough terrain like Hoth or thick forest of Endor (moon?). It would be much like using an F22 Falcon to shoot ground troops.

That's not to say you couldn't deploy some ground-shattering weapon to take out a large area of battle...

The snowspeeders (and I agree... the gunships) were slower and designed probably more for ground-based engagement. We certainly see both vessels maneuvering tightly in AOTC and ESB.

As far as the not using Gunships (which was your point, really I think) it may have been as simple as the vendor that produced them not being around by ESB timeline, or plans destroyed, or any number of other "not specified" thing. Also gunship were an open vehicle - for ground troops to jump out of (and speeders if you can find them at WalMart), so the cold environment of Hoth wouldn't have been too forgiving...

But I think the bottom line is the fact that AOTC came out 20 years after the OT :p
 

AmShak

Senior Moderator
Staff member
I understand the the time thing, but lucas wants this thing to be one seemless story and it seems me that similar items that were used in the clone wars would be used in future battles. I would think that the empire would have some kind of air attack.
I don't want to get into anything that might be spoilers, but IF we are to assume that the clone troopers evolved into the stormtroopers, then it would make sense that the weapons and ships that they used would evolve with them.
The point of this thread was not to discuss the xwings and ties but since it seems to be semi-related i'll say this...
I find it hard to beleive that an xwing could fly through the trench of the deathstar and hit it's target while taking fire from tie fighters and not be able to be used in some way in the battle of hoth. The terrain on hoth may be rocking, but the area where the ATAT's came in and most of the areas where the snowspeeders were flying around seemed to have plenty of room for an xwing to fly around and hit a target. I also find it hard to believe that an xwing can fly out of the swamps of dagobah and not have the ability to fly around on hoth.
Anyway, back to my point... i'm really just saying that it doesn't jive if the movies are to be seen as a seemless story and perhaps there will be future modifications to the OT.
 

TechOfficerTodd

New Recruit
Well if you take into consideration that the Republic AT-TEs were the predecessors to the AT-AT then things kind of link together that way. Why they didn't use air attack on Hoth is still a mystery.

Perhaps it was an issue of "underestimating"... although the Empire did kick ass on Hoth, had they not, Vader would have certainly choked someone in exchange for that insulence. So perhaps someone in the Empire realized/figured that AT-ATs and AT-STs would be "good enough"... and they were right!

On the Death Star issue - I think the trenches and valleys of the surface of the Death Star have far more clearance than the hills of Hoth or forest of Endor... remember that the Death Star was supposed to be the size of a small moon, so an approach into the trench was miles and miles of travel to reach their destinations. Most scenes in Hoth showed walls of snowy mountains - so while this might reflect miles I think it would clearly be "less" room to work with.

Just my thoughts
 

Borsk

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe they plan on adding prequel stuff to the OT to make it more seemless...

The Battle for Hoth could see some new additions.
 
Well todd said everything I was going to say, but I might add that just because we don't see gunships on Hoth doesn't mean that the Empire wasn't using them elsewhere. Maybe they don't function well in the cold.
 

AmShak

Senior Moderator
Staff member
this seems to be all about gunships and xwings, which is fine but my point is that i i think the two battles should have more things in common. why doesn't the empire use anything like those big cannons we see in aotc?

John Williams has said that he has re-done the music for ANH to include the imperial march. Given william's age, this isn't a bad idea by luacs, if he plans on having an even newer version of the movie(s).

There is also a rumor that lucas shot scenes with natalie portman that would be used in ANH or ROTJ.

lucas has said that he wants all 6 movies to be one seemless story.

Perhaps this is why lucas has been holding off putting the OT on dvd. maybe he wants to wait on ep3 to be completed so that he can make his changes to the OT and then release them. This is all just speculation on my part and maybe he won't make any changes at all. I know that there are people who don't like the idea that the OT won't be released on dvd and we'll be getting the SE instead. I'm ok with this and I wouldn't mind seeing more changes made that improve what already exists or gives us more of an insight into his universe. if changes are made, i would think that this is an area that couldbe improved.


now... back to the xwing thing...
i'm guessing that the rebels had no plans of taking the snowspeeders with them or of winning the battle. The xwings were not used because they would want to save those for a later time and to use them as a way off the planet.
I still say that they could have been used if they chose to. I don't buy the theory about the f22 shooting groundtroops, we're talking about attacking AT-AT's. These ships have the ability to fly into space and back, so how could there not be enough room? as a reference, i'm including a few pics... i don't see how you can say that space is smaller or more limited than what they flew through in the deathstar trench or when they flew into the deathstar in rotj. I'm not talking about using the xwings to fly between the legs of the AT-AT, just to do fly-by passes, attacking them.



022703.hoth1.jpg


022703.hoth2.jpg


022703.hoth3.jpg
 
My Two Cents

I understand that this discussion wasn't suppose to be about X-Wings, Ties and the Falcon but I gotta say something. The X-Wings were being used to escort the Rebel Fleet and transports through the Empire's fleet. Being short of x-wings they couldn't take the chance on losing any in the battle. The problem with the Falcon was Chewy was working on it and it wasn't fit.

Being an aircraft mechanic I could come up with some reasonable excuses for Ties not being used. The cold weather of Hoth wouldn't have any effect on space going vehicles because space is near absolute zero in the shade. I think atmosphere could have an extreme effect on the aerodynamics of a tie fighter. It looks to be designed to be a space going vessel only and not very maneuverable in wind. To design it to be multifunctional wouldn't neccessarily be cost effective and would increase the weight. The Tie wouldn't look anything like the Tie we love.

Many Star Wars vehicles appear impractable. As a kid I couldn't figure why AT-ATs were used being as slow as they are but they look intimidating and really "cool". It is one of the most favourate collector toys of all time. Anyway, I could go on forever and open my piggy bank to pull out another 2 cents regarding the gunship and a variety of other craft but then I would be utterly off topic.:frag:
 
Partially quoting AmShak and returning to the topic......

Originally posted by AmShak
Carrying a bunch of gunships around seems much more practical than having a few AT-AT's and they sure would get you there quicker.


To keep the interest/surprise of the audience, GL needed to create different vehicles. Quicker isn't necessarily better. The Empire might not care about their Clones but killing them off senselessly isn't an effective battle stragety

Originally posted by AmShak
I guess we can say that hoth is too cold for the gunships to operate correctly and that endor's trees were too tall ... they say that the snowspeeders were modified to work in such a cold enviroment but why wouldn't the empire have something that worked in a similar way?


If the Empire sent fighters into battle they would have been destroyed by rebel fire. Their objective was to shut down the shield generators. The AT-ATs (All Terrain Armoured Transport to remind you) were designed for all terrain and powerful enough to do the job.

They walked slow but were more or less impenatrable. The Rebel fire was just bouncing off. If it wasn't for the tow cables, they wouldn't have been destroyed. Alot more practible than a gunship.

AT-ATs could also slowly walk through the shields as opposed to a gunship bouncing off.

* AT-ATs also had serious cannons able to blast the shield generators. A gunship had small guns.

* AT-ATs could carry more troops closer than a gunship could safely deliver. Less chance of being destroyed means less troops lost.

* AT-ATs are a far "cooler" vehicle than a gunship.

Thats my underwear and I'm sticking to it.

:D
 

AmShak

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Re: Re: The Battle of Hoth

Originally posted by chris solo
* AT-ATs are a far "cooler" vehicle than a gunship.

I'll disagree with that statement.

Everyone has good points, but i still hold that if these are to be seen as one big movie, the hoth battle is kind of a let down after seeing the battle for geonosis. I understand that the battle for geonosis is a much greater scale but I think the battle of hoth is an area that could be improved, if GL screws with the OT again.

even if the AT-AT is the perfect weapon to use on hoth, i can't believe that there would not be some kind of air support for them.
 

Borsk

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Re: The Battle of Hoth

Originally posted by chris solo
AT-ATs could also slowly walk through the shields as opposed to a gunship bouncing off.

I don't think speed has anything to do with the shield defense. The shield is just blocking lazer/blaster fire. That's the way I believe it works in Star Wars (in Dune it's different).


Increasing the number of snowspeeders and adding Imperial air support would be cool. You can still make the argument that the Imp air support would not have powerful enough guns to take down the generator quickly (although what about TIE Bombers and the Missles on the Gunships?).
 

IG-PPO

Sith Hamsters Handler
I think there is a line in ESB that tells that the rebel shield was strong enough to repeal any bombarding. Maybe that includes the rockets on the Gunship. In my opinion the Gunship were not strong enough to take the shields down. And that why they had to use the AT-ATs.
 

Rancisis

Jedi Trainer
You should all watch ESB again ;-)
Shields where up because someone made a booboo *LOL*
Imp's didn't use aircraft because they couldn't penetrate the shields.
I'm sure of this because Han didn't get permission to leave the planet because they would have to deactivate the shields to allow that...

That's probably also the reason why they didn't use X-wings, those are manovareble enough (over short distances).
As for the AT-AT's, they do the same as the Battle Droids in Episode I, just walk through the shields...
 
Great point Rancisis. The graphics in Ep.1 were good enough to show the droids walking through the shield. In ESB we just had to accept what was said.

Same problem in ROTJ. The ships were unable to attack the Death Star until the shield generator on Endor was dropped. They needed to send people on foot to destroy it from inside. Thats why they couldn't just blast it from space or enter the atmosphere for air support.
 

AmShak

Senior Moderator
Staff member
um ........

the shield theory is good and all but i'm not buying it.

what about the snowpeeders? I would think the shield would have to be lowered for those. even if the shield had an area that the snowspeeders could fly under.

unless......

since we don't see the shield, we don't really know where it is. are we saying that all of the battle with the AT-AT's takes place within the shield?
 

Borsk

Administrator
Staff member
I always thought of planetary shields covering the entire planet rather than a specific location. That's the way shields have been explained in some of the lucasarts games.
 
Originally posted by AmShak

what about the snowpeeders? I would think the shield would have to be lowered for those. even if the shield had an area that the snowspeeders could fly under.

I figure the snowspeeders exited the shield before the battle really started. They new the Empire was comming. The AT-Ats purpose was to penetrate the shield (walk on through) and destroy it to allow an air or space assalt.

The Rebels dropped the shields long enough to use the ion cannon and let their ships through and then again to pass the Star Destroyers.

Maybe the Rebel's turrets in the battle acted the same way as the ion cannon and shot the AT-ATs when the shields were lowered.
 

Zepp

Interstellar Buccaneer
The reason I would suggest for the ground based attack over a bombardment, besides the shield is that the Empire has had to shift from open combat between armies to surgical attacks against geurillas. It would be difficult to strike against the rebel's troops with an airbased attack because they have limited intelligence (which is needed for a successful air campaign) and for the most part the Air based attack would be impossible in most of the places the rebels have bases.

As for not using the X-Wings and TIEs in the atmosphere I think that is fully appropriate. Their power supplies would be rapidly depleted in an atmospheric battle. The ammount of energy used to fly in space without friction is a far sight less than the energy it would take to resist gravity and fly... The TIEs especially would get nearly zero lift from their wings...
 
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